Mod: Good evening everybody. We are privileged to have Minister of State David Lim with us this evening. You may know that he is the Chairman of the Singapore21 Facilitation Committee. We have invited him to 'hear' your views and take your questions on what the Internet might mean for governance in Singapore. That is to say, IT can change the way government operates in Singapore. You might also like to engage him on how IT might change society, business, the law etc too. So MOS Lim - welcome! MOS: Hi everyone! Glad to join you tonight. Do be frank. I'll try to answer your questions best I can. Mod: Would you like to get the ball rolling with your initial thoughts on the very broad subject? MOS: I think most folks would have read the synopsis on the web page, so I'll be glad to take questions right away. I must say the log-on names are most intriguing! Netizen: Will S'pore society really allow a person to question the status quo? To behave differently? MOS: I think Singapore society is quite tolerant. But there are different ways to bring up our views. Netizen: So what's the best way to be heard. MOS: That's really up to you. It depends on whom you want to reach. For example, on-line chats like that are more likely to reach the young, and the techie. A society is made up of lots of different kinds of people. All types of views are important. In fact there is a question here that relates directly to this. We mustn't forget this. But this means that while some might agree with us, others might disagree. Mod: The question had to do with how the elderly would then engage if IT became a primary means for communication between govt and people Netizen: Will the government seem more impersonal if it increasingly relies on the Internet? What about our elder population who is not Internet savvy? MOS: Hi folks: Some of the elderly are also quite adept at IT. I know quite a few who log on, and surf regularly. Mod: Moving on, here is a question on Internet based forums Netizen: What do you think of forums like soc.culture and Sintercom. MOS: But I do agree that there is a digital divide ... some elderly, and some young ones who find the Internet strange and difficult. Just to finish off on the elderly: they will have other means to bring up issues for discussion. Through the newspapers, feedback groups, joining a RC, etc. Soc.Culture is a rather unstructured environment. It's often hard to follow the threads, because the views branch all over the place. I think we are still learning how to use this technology. Moderated chats allow us to have some focus. But on the other hand, a free flowing environment like soc.culture appeals to others. Netizen: Is the Internet seen as another Speakers' Corner? Or is it more dangerous with its international reach and potential for sedition? MOS: The Internet is a tool. Like fire, it can be used for a lot of good, or it can be used for a lot of mischief. It's not the technology, it's the people. Partly, the issue is anonymity... Some people are less inhibited when the chats are anonymous. That's OK, but some can mischievously use it to make remarks in an offensive manner. So, we have to learn to use it well so that we can have good exchanges. We need to learn to differentiate between being frank, and being rude. Netizen: I'm interested in knowing the S'pore govt's view on Internet content censorship. What material should be censored? I'm particularly interested in political sensitivity, and how the govt will go about censoring people's views on the web. MOS: The Internet cannot be effectively censored. What we do when we block sites is to warn people that there are "bad" sites out there. But for political parties, I think it is important that those who want to be heard are willing to stand by their views. This means that they should be willing to identify themselves, and say that this is what they believe in. Netizen: Good evening Minister, we have seen that IT has made a great impact in government and has helped made many of the functions more efficient. For e.g. it seems that it is easier to get in touch with government officials nowadays. But, the problem remains that we don't seem to get a sense if we are heard or not. What do you think can the govt do better with IT for e.g. giving more concrete replies to queries? MOS: This is a problem. I get many emails - sometimes long one - from folks on my public Internet address, and sometimes even on my private address! I would like to reply to all, but sometimes it's just not possible. There are so many questions and views. But that doesn't mean that the views are not heard. We do listen. I think you would have seen how policies in Singapore are shaped by public feedback. It may not be entirely what each person wants, but the government needs to balance out the views from all angles, and then do what we believe to be the right thing for Singapore. Mod: I suppose the question is about getting feedback on the feedback? Netizens: If I may go back to your question as to how we can get concrete responses. Perhaps the Government should publicise more about ongoing forums such as this. MOS: Society needs to organise to be effective. So joining some group - for example if you care about the environment - gives a voice to those types of concerns. Then it makes it easier to put all the arguments together, and to reply. But having said that, I don't think we should limit the channels for communication. Over time, I think society will figure out what is effective, and what is not. It's not any one channel or media that is best always. Netizen: Then shouldn't it be made easier for people to group up? to become a society? Netizen: And it will be even better if more politicians and leaders participate actively in such forums. MOS: This particular forum was organised by a non-government group that was interested in using this media to reach a different group of mostly younger Singaporeans. I would have to ask the Moderator how they publicised this. I think it's not difficult for people to form groups. There have been one or two cases that we did not allow this - but that was for specific reasons. Perhaps in time this could catch on. But I think we have to see if there is widespread interest, and again balance out our need to reach different audiences. Including those that are not Internet savvy. Netizen: I think such forums like this can be a different form of meet-the-people session which shld be promoted. Netizen: Referring back to my earlier question, I would like to know what kind of difficulties the government has faced in censoring the "new media"? MOS: Net savvy people can get around sites that are blocked. We can make it difficult, but we cannot put a watertight seal. So, for things like pornographic sites, we need to educate and help parents guide their kids. This is why we set up PAGI - Parents Advisory Group on the Internet. We hope to give parents tips telling their kids not to give out addresses and phone numbers to strangers, even if they sound very sweet on the Net. That's because the real person could be very different. Netizen: To make my question clearer: People can be physically prevented from forming public protests, but the government cannot prevent people from doing that on the web or via email. What is your view on this? MOS: The same laws that apply in the physical world apply on the net. Folks are allowed to voice their opinion. Now with the speaker's corner, they can just go down to Hong Lim and speak. Netizen: Internet press has said that it is too noisy to hear the speakers - shouldn't loud hailers or mics be allowed? MOS: But they would have to be careful about not breaking laws like defaming other citizens when they do so or saying racially hurtful things that can disrupt our harmonious race relations. Netizen: But wouldn't you agree that all views need not always be or could be included. I think what we need to learn is how to focus on the topic, which means enough info for a more constructive discussion. This is something that we may be better at, with practice. My observation is that some folks just grab the first opportunity to speak when they get to the mic on personal issues - could it be because they have not been heard before - hence is there a need to teach people how to engage more constructively. MOS: I'm not sure U will see this - 'cos U have logged off .. but I do agree with you. How do we engage more constructively? This is a social skill not limited to the net. I think it begins with mutual respect. I would like to say that the Internet will change not just the people-government relationship. It changes people to people relationships as well. Mod: To follow up, is it really feasible to haul in people who make racially hurtful remarks on the net, as it would be in the physical realm? MOS: This is an issue that other countries are also working on. If someone has committed a crime or an offence, and it is necessary, then we have to act responsibly as a government to try and find that person. Law and order and fundamental to every society this does not prevent dialogue and conversation. In fact, it makes it possible. Mod: Since you have a good knowledge of how these things work - how is the offence traceable? Although we do know about records that the US govt had on Microsoft communication and also hauling in the Melissa virus culprit. MOS: That's a very technical question, and I'm not sure that I can answer it well. But I think the relevant parties have the knowledge and skills. MOS: Can I ask our netter friends what are their hopes for the future, and how they think IT can play a part in those aspirations? Netizen: Do you think hate/racism on the net is potentially more dangerous. Since bigots can find validation of the hate MOS: Getting to your question a bit of technical boo boo here. Yes, I think hate/racism is dangerous. Mod: Here are some answers to your question MOS Lim Netizen: I hope Gov't services can be as efficient as Amazon on the Net, and I wish there are more open forums with country leaders on the net regularly. MOS: We will certainly try to make government services as efficient as Amazon's. But hopefully we won't lose as much money! The government is setting aside significant resources to put services on the net. I think you will see the changes after a while. I know that for the net generation, everything happens at net speed! But it still takes time to write software, put up websites, and test them to make sure they are reliable. But IDA is working on it. Stay online! Netizen: I've always hoped for a more caring society. But I also hope that IT brings people closer together than alienate them via anonymity. MOS: Yes. I know folks who use the net to stay in touch, share news, organised "real persons" meetings, etc. I think over time we will learn. Those of us who are a bit ahead of the learning curve can help cause this to happen. We can take the lead, and use the net in intelligent ways. Netizen: Hopefully it would widen our perspectives on how other people-government relationships are like in other countries. Afterall, many a times we can only begin to fully conceptualise something when we can compare two dichotomous meanings. IT would help us find this dichotomy more easily MOS: That's profound. But I do agree that we learn when we see how other people do things. That's one of the values of the net - it gives us a window to the world. But not everything we see is necessarily the best for us. Lifestyles have their consequences. So I hope that we will also learn how to use new information in a thoughtful way. Netizen: My hope is for narrowing of gap between the emerging class divide. A key to this is certainly education which empowers people. The govt can play a big part by making IT affordable to all. MOS: We are trying to keep most Singaporeans on the right side of the divide. One way, as you say, is through education. Our kids in school today have email accounts and access to the net. They will grow up very much at home on the net and hopefully that will also rub off on other family members. Netizen: I hope the govt do not neglect those who cannot be part of the net community, like my sibling who is visually impaired. MOS: I think technology will eventually help us reach those with physical impairments like the visually impaired, because the net environment can be multi-media. Many radio stations are on-line. You could help your sister set this up, and she could listen to music from all over the world! Netizen: Does IT make our defence more vulnerable i.e. people hacking into the system etc? MOS: MINDEF and the SAF are aware of the potential risks. We are very careful to isolate our systems to prevent others from compromising them. But hacking is a general problem, and one of those things that comes with each new generation of technology. This is why we have to take a serious view of hacking. Schoolkids may think it is fun, but it can do a lot of harm - to security, as well as to business and other aspects of net use. Netizen: How do you see Singapore's IT competencies when comparing to other Asian cities such as Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc MOS: I think Singapore is well positioned to compete with HK, Taiwan, etc. But clearly, these are countries that are also very advanced in IT, and know the value of IT. We have to move on, invest, upgrade, and dare to take try new things. MOS: It's been fun chatting with all of you! I hope that you found the session useful. It's a very exciting future out there - perhaps some of your kids will be our leaders in IT in the future! Good night, folks!